I really enjoyed this week’s class because I got to make a few connections with this class and what I’m learning in my criminology class. There are so many people like Hall in this class country that are either non-binary or have been sexually assaulted. In the criminal justice system women are either being killed or beaten for their sexually. Not only are these women being harassed by other inmates but guards are sexual assaulting prisoners as well.
Reasons like this is what makes it hard for women to speak up. At the end of the day it always feels like someone else is in-control.
As someone that is bisexual, there are times that i don’t feel comfortable expressing my sexuality and who I am because people die over who they are. And the strength that Hall has is so admiring. Not being scared to show who he is after everything that happened to him. So many people are afraid to speak up and this story spreads a wonderful message that could benefit so many others.
The connection you made between Hall and the justice system today is extremely powerful. These injustices are still extremely prevalent in today society, and it deeply saddens me. However, I agree with you Hall's story is very powerful and reminds me even though it could be scary I must be true to myself no matter what. I hope we will one day live in a world where everyone can authentically be themselves.
I really enjoyed you connection you made with how our system is today. The reason being is because I have two moms and growing up with them, I didn't really notice how much attention they got out in public. When I got older, I started noticing the stares, or the whispers whenever we would go out in public, and it really got to me at one point. I talked with them about it, and they had to tell me that if they didn't care about people noticing then I shouldn't, but it was not that easy for me. Now that I'm an adult I definitely pay less attention to it because, we shouldn't have to worry about what other people think about our lives. It's horrible that we have to live in a place where we're constantly worried about be ridiculed or harassed for just being ourselves, so you bring this up is something I really appreciate and resonate with.
I really like how you connecting the reading for this week on Hall with current issues that is going on in our system. It is true that women in prisons are being harassed by both other prisoners and guards. I do agree that the strength Hall showed is inspiring and also shows us how there are people who push others into a category so they themselves can understand. However, being pushed into these "norms" hurts those who are being pushed in the process.
Some men don’t want to be married to someone who makes more than them. They feel like their manhood is dependent on being the person that makes more money in the relationship because their partner would be financially dependent on them. The idea that in order to be a man you have to be the dominant in a relationship is something taught by society. In movies men are depicted as physically strong, providers and emotionally stunted. Whereas a woman is depicted as emotionally open, maternal and traditionally a home maker. There are more progressive relationships that don’t dwell on societal/gender expectations. Even then there is somehow always one partner that is viewed as the masculine one.
People fear change as seen in the case of Thomas(ine) Hall. They were different and people assaulted to do examinations. It’s so heartbreaking to read about such a progressive person being treated unfairly and having to conform to society’s rules when Thomas(ine) wasn’t harming anyone. During this time people couldn’t understand how someone who they thought was a women could work out in the fields, one man even said he wanted to purchase Thomas(ine) but he first needed to know if they were a man or woman because that would determine what tasks they could do. I was surprised to read that because at this point in the story Thomas(ine) had proved they could accomplish both a man and a woman’s task well.
I do agree that one thing that men are extremely sensitive about is if their partner is more successful than them. The fact that it means to them that their partner is not financially dependent on them is something that truly makes some men freak out and become irrational. I agree that the views we have on how each gender is supposed to act are portrayed and exacerbated in media and it is causing harm to our society.
You make an excellent point. I feel like one of the roots for men's sensitivity pertaining to their partner and their success is the misogyny that's so deeply rooted in our patriarchal culture. This just results in a population of men with fragile ego who become volatile when threatened. So, all in all, I completely agree with you, and I think you worded that very nicely!
I really enjoyed reading about Thomas/ine Hall. I think I finally have an answer to that question everyone has most likely been asked at least once in their life: what historical figure would you want to have dinner with? I would love to hear their story from their own mouth. Although the court case includes their own testimony, the case is still heavily biased because of the judge and jury’s personal beliefs on their gender identity and societal expectations of gender. Because of these beliefs, Hall was treated as a spectacle. They became an object that was used to fulfill others’ curiosities and uphold gender roles. I find it interesting that the people around Hall were more concerned with how they would fit into their ideas of gender roles than Hall themself. I find it disgusting that Hall was forced into non-consensual searches of their body. I refuse to believe that was okay back then. There is no way that a traditional man or woman was subjected to this kind of search and I don’t think this would’ve been viewed as normal behavior. These people only saw this as fine to do because according to them, Hall was an object. Since Hall wasn’t “normal,” people believed they had the right to be curious and act upon those curiosities about Hall’s gender or lack thereof. They were treated like an animal. This kind of curiosity is still around today. Trans people everywhere are asked by complete strangers about what body parts they may or may not have when, quite frankly, is none of their business and is creepy behavior. Stories like Hall’s are not seen anymore, but the sentiments behind them are exactly the same today. For some reason, many cis people feel like they have the right to know about a trans person’s body.
I completely agree. Id love to sit down with them and have a chat about their life and what they went through in full depth. I'd love to pick their brain and see how they were actually feeling in real time and what they did or didn't do to cope with the hardships of what they were going through.
Hall's case was absolutely fascinating and devastating to read. As a Queer individual, I love reading about Queer history and unfolding the lies that Trans and Queer people are part of a new revolution and not a part of our nation's history. When we talk about history from a Queer perspective, it is essential to acknowledge the history of sexual violence perpetuated against people of that culture. The fascination with Queer people and our bodies is a long and tired story that has led to our current social culture of higher rates of assault, murder, and general sexual violence towards trans and Queer people.
I think while it was enlightening to see a story of a non-binary/trans individual in the early times of our country, the telling of their own sexual abuse and mishandling by the people in their community was upsetting. I think Hall's story was especially interesting when we discussed the concepts of manifest destiny, religious purpose, and relationships with land in the U.S. Throughout our discussions in class, we have noted that the colonial vision of land is much different than that of an Indigenous perspective, similar to how the two peoples view gender.
I mentioned in class today that several Indigenous communities and various cultures around the world have developed language for describing alternative genders outside of the American social binary, and that when the Americas were colonized, this rhetoric disappeared due to it being hard to control, and different from that of colonial belief. When we hold discussions around Queer history and the concepts of gender, we need to remember that all forms of social norms in America are constructed to better serve a capitalistic system, and therefore inherently seek to harm Queer/Trans/BIPOC bodies. Essentially anyone who resides outside of a collective social norm is persecuted or required to assimilate ( through marriage rights or the loss of culture, etc.).
When we consider the concept of culture stripping, gender norms, and sexual violence, we begin to wonder how this all ties to land. However, it is important to remember that the Christian belief in man's right to land stems from a woman taking control over her own bodily autonomy, who was then punished with childbirth and submission for her actions. When we view the story of Skywoman and other Indigenous practices, we can see that Indigenous culture holds an immense amount of respect for land and mother Earth. Their planting cycles are based around her needs, and animals are cared for and hunted in a way that remains sustainable. The Englishmen in America however entirely stripped the land of it's nutrients, seeking to "master" it, rather than seek a coexistence.
So how does everything tie together? From the colonial perspective, the Earth has been named as a woman, and also as something to be tamed. Additionally, opposing views (such as that of Indigenous peoples) were effectively erased throughout history to create one colonialist narrative of rights and understanding. This "mastery" of Mother Earth is a reflection of colonialist gender ideals, and what part they believed women played in the world. To continue this thought, it can then be assumed that since the entire society of the English revolved around this gender binary (including placing the actual Earth within this system) that anything "abnormal" (such as Queer, Trans, and non-binary folk) would inherently disrupt the system. This is why I find Hall's story to be so fascinating. Hall's story is an example of modern society attempting to remain in control when opposed by something that dares to be different.
The story of Hall asks us all to question our realities, and why we believe the things we do. Why are certain traits only applied to women? Why has the land and women been both feminized and fetishized and what purpose does this serve to the greater colonialist, capitalist, agenda? Can Queer history and media truly change the perspective of the future and cultivate change?
It was crazy to me because the townspeople thought they had a right to examine Thomas(ines) body and did not consider what they did assault. They were criminals pretending to be moral people.
You put everything I was feeling into such great writing that I think more need to hear about this. I think too often, in queer studies and in our day-to-day non-academic lives, we tend to forget that so much of the issues of today go back so much farther than we originally can ever conceive. As you state, we're slowly unfolding the lies that being transgender and the idea of being queer is a new concept and that it is instead something that goes much further back. But I also think a caveat to this is when we discuss the horrors in cases similar to Hall, a sense of treating Hall as a "case" and not as a person can happen very quickly, even if we don't intend for that to occur. You definitely know how to portray these experiences of queer history and identity in a way that honors Hall's history even when they were not honored or even given basic human decency in their time.
I completely agree with you when you say Hall's story was so fascinating and how the idea of "abnormalities" affected the system. The way the court resolved Hall's case was telling that they had no idea how to handle their case and that letting them decide what they wanted to do on their own wasn't ever in question.
> How does the definition of manhood through relationship, especially relationships of dominance, make men and male identities, dependent on women’s submission and, thus, vulnerable and fragile? What is an example of this?
In a sense I think that the question answers itself: if a relationship is based on forced subjugation, then the dominant party will be a forceful subjugator. Although I understand the context of the question, I am hesitant to acknowledge that 'male identities' are dependent on people being submissive. I may be missing a layer of nuance given that I wasn't present for this discussion today, but I think that affirming that masculine identities are based on domination could be highly problematic.
Furthermore, as I commented in a previous thread, I think that it is important to interpret the philosophical roots of the societal changes we are studying; people didn't just wake up one day, as some of the terms in this unit suggest, there are reason why people change their thinking, typically to benefit themselves. Think, what socio-economic changes occurred around the shift from animism to mechanism, and why? Why and how could a society shift so rapidly from respecting the earth, to believing it should be extracted and desecrated, with social roles to match?
> We see patriarchy in all three of these relationships and also changing. How so? How is God a part of patriarchal models? How does patriarchy go back to Adam and Eve? What was Adam’s role and how does it relate to the role of the colonial farmer and the scientists in the 17th and 18th C Atlantic World.
The Abrahamic belief systems promotes male dominance over women in public life. Adam and Eve is is patriarchal because it portrays women as left-overs, and cause trouble. This is portrayed as partly Adam's fault because he should have control over his woman. The colonial farmer and scientist relate to this because they are encouraged ideologically to exert control over the earth.
> How do these relations compare with Skywoman and the Wampanoag idea of kinship with the land and responsibility to the land in Native American relations of sovereignty?
When the land is objectified and becomes a thing, what does it become possible for colonial farmers and as capitalism and industry advance, for Anglo Americans to do to the land?
Skywoman, which is derivative of native American creation stories, and the Wampanoag idea of kinship is almost the opposite. The tribes live on the earth which is an independent and powerful entity. Instead of overcoming nature, the tribes are more inclined to work with it.
When land gets objectified and the environment destroyed, it ideologically allows mass development. This is an example of alienation.
> In the mechanistic model, there is a step in which nature is rushed. How do humans use technology to rush nature? What technologies are they using? What is the thinking of Bacon and then Descartes, that facilitates this rushing and objectification of nature?
Humans use technology to 'rush' nature to benefit us. Fertilizers, breeding animals and crops, synthesizing oil (instead of digging it out of the ground), etc. Bacon and Descartes pioneered enlightened forms of logical analysis. They both essentially believed that we could use the resources provided by the earth to enhance our (humanities) quality of life. This facilities the 'rushing' of nature because it encourages people to take an active role in investigating the properties and materials of earth.
> Then, these gendered relations of power get racialized in slavery. How so?
I would tread very carefully as you intersect the race/gender/class issue as it transcends public opinion, there are innate mechanisms of our economic system which encourages these disparities, and it hasn't always been that 'workers are more physical, bosses are more aristocratic'. This might lead people to believe that strong = worker and weak = boss.
To get on with the question, justifying slavery, particularly in America, was very bloody and very dirty. Slavery wasn't justified before Slavery happened, the slave-owners were forced to justify slavery as the gruesome aspects of it were made public. A modern example: Palestine. The genocide and ethnic cleansing as been ongoing since the first Nakba, in 1948. Only now, since the beginning of this latest episode, has Israel been forced to answer for its actions.
Furthermore, for the slave-owning aristocrats to justify Slavery, they delved into the deepest darkest elements of the scientific racism to make the case to the pubic (which obviously was unsuccessful). They doubled down on the idea that white men are the highest on the totempole, white women were just below them, then all the non-anglo-saxon white were below them. It wasn't inherent, it was taught, radicalized, societally.
> How might the politics of objectification and the surrender of bodily autonomy along the American gendered hierarchy explain some of the race and class dynamics in this election?
The Republican party has been openly fascistic, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc, and it hasn't played well with the majority of the US population. The gendered hierarchy is more in the background this election than compared to 2016, when a large part of Hillary's campaign was based on 'being the first female president', because the Democratic party has learned that voters don't care nearly as much about the identity of the person running, but about the policies they are running on. In fact, the Democratic policy shifts surrounding the border, Israel, crime, and medicare for all very well could cost them the election.
The Republican party has shifted to the right, and so has the democrats. The difference is, the Republican voters have also shifted to the right, but a good chunk of the Democratic voters have not.
> What thoughts does the case of Hall provoke in you?
Well its all just very sad but not surprising even to this day. I think its clear from the historical record that Hall likely had some sort of hormonal imbalance and would probably determined to be intersex today. It's kind of just stressful because I am a trans person and this is the type of discourse swarming around now. Last year multiple southern states made it illegal to 'do drag in public', obviously targeting trans people. So its reminiscent of that.
As we began to shift to a more mechanistic view as shown in the Brooks reading husbandry became less and less prevalent as we became more extraction focused. There was a quote by Bacon that I can't seem to find that essentially stated that following expulsion from Eden that the land was our only tie to what we lost and over the years we became bent on mastering/ dominating this land to reclaim what we lost. In doing so and abandoning husbandry of the land we would further stray from those religious ideals that set the tone for what we see in the Hall documents as well as the current presidential elections. In terms of the Hall documents it's seen with Hall slipping between the conventional gender roles at will, demonstrated by adopting a masculine role to fight in Europe and switching back to sewing bone lace once the fighting had concluded. Along with taking predominantly female roles in the Americas upon Hall's arrival. In Hall documents one of the things that stuck out to me was that sexual relations between females was not prohibited by law only Male x female at the time. Since Hall was identifying as female at the time this wouldn't have been against the law, yet the court and neighbors would conduct search's whether warranted by the court or not, to determine Hall's sex. This was unreasonably rash and invasive from my perspective.in the ruling for Hall to wear both Male and Female clothing I feel this was a significantly better outcome than some of the alternatives that could have happened. This also relates to the President debate because of the loss of a form of autonomy, for Hall how they dress and for modern day women abortion. This comes with a sense of emasculating and removing control from a dominate group of men (ex. President Trump), similar to Bacon's quote on religion and the shift to mechanism (a sense of hyper masculinity and dominant control) through a seemingly weaponized sense of religion (blaming Eve for the ejection from Eden, Earth being female associated, abortions) tends to throw a wrench in to the ideals of bodily autonomy because it opens hundreds of ways for it to potentially be limited and violated like it was for Thomas(ine) Hall.
Good summary, Payton. I think that your distinction between Woman x Woman relations and Male x Male relations are important to note. In western society sexual ambiguity is more permissible between 'women' than 'men'. Interestingly we can find something like this in Iranian society, homosexuality between men is forbidden UNLESS the 'bottom' medically transitions to female (which is legally recognized). I suggest you read into that because its very fascinating, that distinction was made relatively recently (80s 90s?).
Hall makes me think of so many things especially because it was so far in the past, hall makes me think about how common it was for some native communities to have a third sex/ multi-spirited person. It also makes me think about how many other people like Hall lived and had similar things happen or even think about the people who didn’t make it as far as Hall because of who they are. How many people got away with doing what Hall did and how many of them were hurt emotionally or physically because of it? I also wonder how the mental health of Hall and others not only watching Hall being forced to be one or another but the mental health of the people deciding Hall's sex. Hall provokes questions and pride to see a person like that do so well even in that time.
The ideas of bodily autonomy in Old and New England use naturalistic elements and symbols to convey femininity. Merchant discusses the unarguable concepts of Mother Nature and her link to God (Christian/Protestant), noting that “To the peasant and farmer, her signs and activities were often enigmatic and had to be accepted as God's will rather than challenged or analyzed” (Merchant, 114). The agricultural revolution occurring in the colonies at this time used the symbolism of Mother Nature as a female figure. Does this mean that if a farm year was terrible, a woman would be blamed? Observing the recent presidential election makes me think about how many paternalistic and misogynistic individuals still believe a woman isn’t suited to be a leader. Reflecting on this article and theme makes me consider the enduring history of paternalistic culture—a culture that has persisted for over 250 years in American history.
It is shocking to me that the natural beauty of childbirth can have negative societal implications. Historically, women have been assigned strict gender roles in American society. This is evident in how women often did not receive formal education, with only elite families possessing the power to educate their daughters. Women were expected to manage the household and care for children. This history of controlled gender roles and rigid social expectations deeply concerns me, particularly in the context of presidential elections. As a male, I strongly oppose regressing to the 1950s mentality. Women should have the same rights as men and deserve autonomy, particularly concerning reproductive rights. American women should not be marginalized by patriarchal systems.
The stories of non-binary people who were sexually abused inside the criminal justice system, such as Thomas(ine) Hall, were covered in this week's session. Social norms prevent women from speaking up, and they are frequently murdered or abused because of their sexual orientation. Given that many people are hesitant to speak up, Hall's bravery in declaring his sexuality is admirable. Due to cultural norms and individual views on gender identity, the Hall case was highly skewed. Strangers still question transgender people about their physical parts, demonstrating the persistence of this curiosity.
Traditionally, husbandry meant taking care of the land, animals, and crops. It was about working closely with nature...planting seeds, caring for animals, and making sure the soil stayed healthy. But with modern machinery, like tractors and implementations of GMO's, farming has become much more about using technology to get the job done faster and more efficiently. Instead of working by hand, farmers now rely on machines to do most of the physical labor. This means farming is less about caring for the land in a personal, hands-on way and more about managing machines, running a business, and focusing on profits. So, the idea of husbandry shifts...instead of being a "husband" who nurtures and cares for the land, it can feel like the land is just a resource to be used, almost like a machine itself. This is also how men began to shift their views on women. Their wives were no longer someone they wanted to cherish, protect, and keep their hands from being calloused. They now expected dinner to be ready when they got home, the kids and house were cleaned, and when he wanted to be sexually intimate she was inclined to participate willingly. She became the machine the man worked with.
I feel like definition of manhood based on dominance in relationships creates a dependency on women’s submission, which makes masculinity feel very fragile and vulnerable. This idea basically says that masculinity requires affirmation through control or influence over others, in many cases that we have looked at over in all our sources specifically women, which honestly makes male identity reliant on maintaining hierarchical power. When this hierarchy is challenged it kinda destabilizes traditional norms of masculinity. Example: When women take on leadership roles or excel in fields traditionally dominated by men. I feel like this was shown in readings about Skywoman because she was seen as a very powerful figure.
Looking at Thomas(ine), It’s disheartening to see someone innocent unjustly pressured to fit into societal norms, especially when Thomas(ine) was causing no harm to anyone. It still relates to the world today unfortunately and I truely hope that someday this won't happen to people like them.
The case of Thomas/ine Hall is my earliest knowledge of gender and identity historically. Now that I’ve been able to examine the case on my own and in our discussions in class, I can recognize how our past shapes larger and more complex issues in society today. Also how making connections from cases like Thomas/ine Hall is so important in order to have a better understanding of gender as a whole. Hall's case represents a broader issue among individuals struggling with their identities. The close mindedness of Halls aggressors almost reminds me of a sort of hysteria similar to The Salem Witch Trials and the hysteria that followed.
I feel that masculinity is such a touchy topic for most men, and I don't really understand why. A lot of men think being masculine means being the sole provider, being big and strong, and being able to control/manipulate the women around them. Whenever I see a man that acts like that, I think they're showing the exact opposite of masculinity. Anyone can be masculine, not just men, and the fact that they think that specifically is the way to be masculine is honestly quite embarrassing.
After talking about it in class and getting a better understanding of what had happened to hall. I had found it horrid and disgussting that, that happened to them. Hall went through a lot of sexual harassment and assault. I used to identify as non- binary and it hurt when people didn't respect my pronouns and why I identified with that. So I hearing how they use He/Him for Hall made me a bit mad. What happened to hall used to be a fear of mine considering at the time ,when I did identify with non-binary, living in a town with a mix of people who are very conservative or very liberal. But there were many more conservative individuals. But the confidence Hall had to wear what ever they wanted is amazing. I personally still can't get myself to wear very feminine clothing. I do hope we can get to a point in society where everyone can live the lives they want, and not fear for their lives while living their lives the way they want to.
As a history lover, I have a passion for learning about people from the past who were influential to our history but aren’t recognized in many history books. The people who tell us most about our past are those whose voices were silenced or erased because their words or actions are usually the most real and truthful. This brings me to our readings for this week. The story of Thomas(ine) Hall fascinated me. The fact that there was history of an intersex person so far back in our past that was recorded in history amazes me. Sadly, we as a society and me as a history buff can even say that it surprises us that a person who can’t help who they are is in history rather than being erased from it. I feel like the story of Thomas(ine) Hall sheds light on the idea of masculinity and how it played such a heavy role in the society of the colonies.The idea of someone not fitting gender roles scared society. This goes back to the way that men had and kept control of the women in society and how they remained the holders of all the power in the community. They pushed gender roles that men did the labor, owned the assets, held positions of power, and that they were the decision-makers. Whereas women tended to the house, gave the men children, and had little say in society, they were merely pawns in their game. The problem with this idea being so normalized is that women started fully believing that they were less than men. To gain just a smidgen of control they took it upon themselves to preserve this idea that men were superior to women. This led to problems as we can see in the story of Thomas(ine) Hall, where women in society were sent out to “examine” Thomas(ine)’s genitalia. They used the excuse that they were protecting society when in reality they had just assaulted Thoams(ine). Thomas(ine) was a threat to their way of life and that led to many recorded assaults on Thomas(ine) and a long drawn out trial that subjected them to a series of intrusive and rude comments.
I really enjoyed this week’s class because I got to make a few connections with this class and what I’m learning in my criminology class. There are so many people like Hall in this class country that are either non-binary or have been sexually assaulted. In the criminal justice system women are either being killed or beaten for their sexually. Not only are these women being harassed by other inmates but guards are sexual assaulting prisoners as well.
Reasons like this is what makes it hard for women to speak up. At the end of the day it always feels like someone else is in-control.
As someone that is bisexual, there are times that i don’t feel comfortable expressing my sexuality and who I am because people die over who they are. And the strength that Hall has is so admiring. Not being scared to show who he is after everything that happened to him. So many people are afraid to speak up and this story spreads a wonderful message that could benefit so many others.
The connection you made between Hall and the justice system today is extremely powerful. These injustices are still extremely prevalent in today society, and it deeply saddens me. However, I agree with you Hall's story is very powerful and reminds me even though it could be scary I must be true to myself no matter what. I hope we will one day live in a world where everyone can authentically be themselves.
I really enjoyed you connection you made with how our system is today. The reason being is because I have two moms and growing up with them, I didn't really notice how much attention they got out in public. When I got older, I started noticing the stares, or the whispers whenever we would go out in public, and it really got to me at one point. I talked with them about it, and they had to tell me that if they didn't care about people noticing then I shouldn't, but it was not that easy for me. Now that I'm an adult I definitely pay less attention to it because, we shouldn't have to worry about what other people think about our lives. It's horrible that we have to live in a place where we're constantly worried about be ridiculed or harassed for just being ourselves, so you bring this up is something I really appreciate and resonate with.
I really like how you connecting the reading for this week on Hall with current issues that is going on in our system. It is true that women in prisons are being harassed by both other prisoners and guards. I do agree that the strength Hall showed is inspiring and also shows us how there are people who push others into a category so they themselves can understand. However, being pushed into these "norms" hurts those who are being pushed in the process.
Some men don’t want to be married to someone who makes more than them. They feel like their manhood is dependent on being the person that makes more money in the relationship because their partner would be financially dependent on them. The idea that in order to be a man you have to be the dominant in a relationship is something taught by society. In movies men are depicted as physically strong, providers and emotionally stunted. Whereas a woman is depicted as emotionally open, maternal and traditionally a home maker. There are more progressive relationships that don’t dwell on societal/gender expectations. Even then there is somehow always one partner that is viewed as the masculine one.
People fear change as seen in the case of Thomas(ine) Hall. They were different and people assaulted to do examinations. It’s so heartbreaking to read about such a progressive person being treated unfairly and having to conform to society’s rules when Thomas(ine) wasn’t harming anyone. During this time people couldn’t understand how someone who they thought was a women could work out in the fields, one man even said he wanted to purchase Thomas(ine) but he first needed to know if they were a man or woman because that would determine what tasks they could do. I was surprised to read that because at this point in the story Thomas(ine) had proved they could accomplish both a man and a woman’s task well.
I do agree that one thing that men are extremely sensitive about is if their partner is more successful than them. The fact that it means to them that their partner is not financially dependent on them is something that truly makes some men freak out and become irrational. I agree that the views we have on how each gender is supposed to act are portrayed and exacerbated in media and it is causing harm to our society.
You make an excellent point. I feel like one of the roots for men's sensitivity pertaining to their partner and their success is the misogyny that's so deeply rooted in our patriarchal culture. This just results in a population of men with fragile ego who become volatile when threatened. So, all in all, I completely agree with you, and I think you worded that very nicely!
Here's my substack: https://ttj38.substack.com/?r=4buqi5&utm_campaign=pub-share-checklist
Looking good so far!!
I really enjoyed reading about Thomas/ine Hall. I think I finally have an answer to that question everyone has most likely been asked at least once in their life: what historical figure would you want to have dinner with? I would love to hear their story from their own mouth. Although the court case includes their own testimony, the case is still heavily biased because of the judge and jury’s personal beliefs on their gender identity and societal expectations of gender. Because of these beliefs, Hall was treated as a spectacle. They became an object that was used to fulfill others’ curiosities and uphold gender roles. I find it interesting that the people around Hall were more concerned with how they would fit into their ideas of gender roles than Hall themself. I find it disgusting that Hall was forced into non-consensual searches of their body. I refuse to believe that was okay back then. There is no way that a traditional man or woman was subjected to this kind of search and I don’t think this would’ve been viewed as normal behavior. These people only saw this as fine to do because according to them, Hall was an object. Since Hall wasn’t “normal,” people believed they had the right to be curious and act upon those curiosities about Hall’s gender or lack thereof. They were treated like an animal. This kind of curiosity is still around today. Trans people everywhere are asked by complete strangers about what body parts they may or may not have when, quite frankly, is none of their business and is creepy behavior. Stories like Hall’s are not seen anymore, but the sentiments behind them are exactly the same today. For some reason, many cis people feel like they have the right to know about a trans person’s body.
I completely agree. Id love to sit down with them and have a chat about their life and what they went through in full depth. I'd love to pick their brain and see how they were actually feeling in real time and what they did or didn't do to cope with the hardships of what they were going through.
Hall's case was absolutely fascinating and devastating to read. As a Queer individual, I love reading about Queer history and unfolding the lies that Trans and Queer people are part of a new revolution and not a part of our nation's history. When we talk about history from a Queer perspective, it is essential to acknowledge the history of sexual violence perpetuated against people of that culture. The fascination with Queer people and our bodies is a long and tired story that has led to our current social culture of higher rates of assault, murder, and general sexual violence towards trans and Queer people.
I think while it was enlightening to see a story of a non-binary/trans individual in the early times of our country, the telling of their own sexual abuse and mishandling by the people in their community was upsetting. I think Hall's story was especially interesting when we discussed the concepts of manifest destiny, religious purpose, and relationships with land in the U.S. Throughout our discussions in class, we have noted that the colonial vision of land is much different than that of an Indigenous perspective, similar to how the two peoples view gender.
I mentioned in class today that several Indigenous communities and various cultures around the world have developed language for describing alternative genders outside of the American social binary, and that when the Americas were colonized, this rhetoric disappeared due to it being hard to control, and different from that of colonial belief. When we hold discussions around Queer history and the concepts of gender, we need to remember that all forms of social norms in America are constructed to better serve a capitalistic system, and therefore inherently seek to harm Queer/Trans/BIPOC bodies. Essentially anyone who resides outside of a collective social norm is persecuted or required to assimilate ( through marriage rights or the loss of culture, etc.).
When we consider the concept of culture stripping, gender norms, and sexual violence, we begin to wonder how this all ties to land. However, it is important to remember that the Christian belief in man's right to land stems from a woman taking control over her own bodily autonomy, who was then punished with childbirth and submission for her actions. When we view the story of Skywoman and other Indigenous practices, we can see that Indigenous culture holds an immense amount of respect for land and mother Earth. Their planting cycles are based around her needs, and animals are cared for and hunted in a way that remains sustainable. The Englishmen in America however entirely stripped the land of it's nutrients, seeking to "master" it, rather than seek a coexistence.
So how does everything tie together? From the colonial perspective, the Earth has been named as a woman, and also as something to be tamed. Additionally, opposing views (such as that of Indigenous peoples) were effectively erased throughout history to create one colonialist narrative of rights and understanding. This "mastery" of Mother Earth is a reflection of colonialist gender ideals, and what part they believed women played in the world. To continue this thought, it can then be assumed that since the entire society of the English revolved around this gender binary (including placing the actual Earth within this system) that anything "abnormal" (such as Queer, Trans, and non-binary folk) would inherently disrupt the system. This is why I find Hall's story to be so fascinating. Hall's story is an example of modern society attempting to remain in control when opposed by something that dares to be different.
The story of Hall asks us all to question our realities, and why we believe the things we do. Why are certain traits only applied to women? Why has the land and women been both feminized and fetishized and what purpose does this serve to the greater colonialist, capitalist, agenda? Can Queer history and media truly change the perspective of the future and cultivate change?
What do y'all think?
It was crazy to me because the townspeople thought they had a right to examine Thomas(ines) body and did not consider what they did assault. They were criminals pretending to be moral people.
You put everything I was feeling into such great writing that I think more need to hear about this. I think too often, in queer studies and in our day-to-day non-academic lives, we tend to forget that so much of the issues of today go back so much farther than we originally can ever conceive. As you state, we're slowly unfolding the lies that being transgender and the idea of being queer is a new concept and that it is instead something that goes much further back. But I also think a caveat to this is when we discuss the horrors in cases similar to Hall, a sense of treating Hall as a "case" and not as a person can happen very quickly, even if we don't intend for that to occur. You definitely know how to portray these experiences of queer history and identity in a way that honors Hall's history even when they were not honored or even given basic human decency in their time.
I completely agree with you when you say Hall's story was so fascinating and how the idea of "abnormalities" affected the system. The way the court resolved Hall's case was telling that they had no idea how to handle their case and that letting them decide what they wanted to do on their own wasn't ever in question.
> How does the definition of manhood through relationship, especially relationships of dominance, make men and male identities, dependent on women’s submission and, thus, vulnerable and fragile? What is an example of this?
In a sense I think that the question answers itself: if a relationship is based on forced subjugation, then the dominant party will be a forceful subjugator. Although I understand the context of the question, I am hesitant to acknowledge that 'male identities' are dependent on people being submissive. I may be missing a layer of nuance given that I wasn't present for this discussion today, but I think that affirming that masculine identities are based on domination could be highly problematic.
Furthermore, as I commented in a previous thread, I think that it is important to interpret the philosophical roots of the societal changes we are studying; people didn't just wake up one day, as some of the terms in this unit suggest, there are reason why people change their thinking, typically to benefit themselves. Think, what socio-economic changes occurred around the shift from animism to mechanism, and why? Why and how could a society shift so rapidly from respecting the earth, to believing it should be extracted and desecrated, with social roles to match?
> We see patriarchy in all three of these relationships and also changing. How so? How is God a part of patriarchal models? How does patriarchy go back to Adam and Eve? What was Adam’s role and how does it relate to the role of the colonial farmer and the scientists in the 17th and 18th C Atlantic World.
The Abrahamic belief systems promotes male dominance over women in public life. Adam and Eve is is patriarchal because it portrays women as left-overs, and cause trouble. This is portrayed as partly Adam's fault because he should have control over his woman. The colonial farmer and scientist relate to this because they are encouraged ideologically to exert control over the earth.
> How do these relations compare with Skywoman and the Wampanoag idea of kinship with the land and responsibility to the land in Native American relations of sovereignty?
When the land is objectified and becomes a thing, what does it become possible for colonial farmers and as capitalism and industry advance, for Anglo Americans to do to the land?
Skywoman, which is derivative of native American creation stories, and the Wampanoag idea of kinship is almost the opposite. The tribes live on the earth which is an independent and powerful entity. Instead of overcoming nature, the tribes are more inclined to work with it.
When land gets objectified and the environment destroyed, it ideologically allows mass development. This is an example of alienation.
> In the mechanistic model, there is a step in which nature is rushed. How do humans use technology to rush nature? What technologies are they using? What is the thinking of Bacon and then Descartes, that facilitates this rushing and objectification of nature?
Humans use technology to 'rush' nature to benefit us. Fertilizers, breeding animals and crops, synthesizing oil (instead of digging it out of the ground), etc. Bacon and Descartes pioneered enlightened forms of logical analysis. They both essentially believed that we could use the resources provided by the earth to enhance our (humanities) quality of life. This facilities the 'rushing' of nature because it encourages people to take an active role in investigating the properties and materials of earth.
> Then, these gendered relations of power get racialized in slavery. How so?
I would tread very carefully as you intersect the race/gender/class issue as it transcends public opinion, there are innate mechanisms of our economic system which encourages these disparities, and it hasn't always been that 'workers are more physical, bosses are more aristocratic'. This might lead people to believe that strong = worker and weak = boss.
To get on with the question, justifying slavery, particularly in America, was very bloody and very dirty. Slavery wasn't justified before Slavery happened, the slave-owners were forced to justify slavery as the gruesome aspects of it were made public. A modern example: Palestine. The genocide and ethnic cleansing as been ongoing since the first Nakba, in 1948. Only now, since the beginning of this latest episode, has Israel been forced to answer for its actions.
Furthermore, for the slave-owning aristocrats to justify Slavery, they delved into the deepest darkest elements of the scientific racism to make the case to the pubic (which obviously was unsuccessful). They doubled down on the idea that white men are the highest on the totempole, white women were just below them, then all the non-anglo-saxon white were below them. It wasn't inherent, it was taught, radicalized, societally.
> How might the politics of objectification and the surrender of bodily autonomy along the American gendered hierarchy explain some of the race and class dynamics in this election?
The Republican party has been openly fascistic, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc, and it hasn't played well with the majority of the US population. The gendered hierarchy is more in the background this election than compared to 2016, when a large part of Hillary's campaign was based on 'being the first female president', because the Democratic party has learned that voters don't care nearly as much about the identity of the person running, but about the policies they are running on. In fact, the Democratic policy shifts surrounding the border, Israel, crime, and medicare for all very well could cost them the election.
The Republican party has shifted to the right, and so has the democrats. The difference is, the Republican voters have also shifted to the right, but a good chunk of the Democratic voters have not.
> What thoughts does the case of Hall provoke in you?
Well its all just very sad but not surprising even to this day. I think its clear from the historical record that Hall likely had some sort of hormonal imbalance and would probably determined to be intersex today. It's kind of just stressful because I am a trans person and this is the type of discourse swarming around now. Last year multiple southern states made it illegal to 'do drag in public', obviously targeting trans people. So its reminiscent of that.
As we began to shift to a more mechanistic view as shown in the Brooks reading husbandry became less and less prevalent as we became more extraction focused. There was a quote by Bacon that I can't seem to find that essentially stated that following expulsion from Eden that the land was our only tie to what we lost and over the years we became bent on mastering/ dominating this land to reclaim what we lost. In doing so and abandoning husbandry of the land we would further stray from those religious ideals that set the tone for what we see in the Hall documents as well as the current presidential elections. In terms of the Hall documents it's seen with Hall slipping between the conventional gender roles at will, demonstrated by adopting a masculine role to fight in Europe and switching back to sewing bone lace once the fighting had concluded. Along with taking predominantly female roles in the Americas upon Hall's arrival. In Hall documents one of the things that stuck out to me was that sexual relations between females was not prohibited by law only Male x female at the time. Since Hall was identifying as female at the time this wouldn't have been against the law, yet the court and neighbors would conduct search's whether warranted by the court or not, to determine Hall's sex. This was unreasonably rash and invasive from my perspective.in the ruling for Hall to wear both Male and Female clothing I feel this was a significantly better outcome than some of the alternatives that could have happened. This also relates to the President debate because of the loss of a form of autonomy, for Hall how they dress and for modern day women abortion. This comes with a sense of emasculating and removing control from a dominate group of men (ex. President Trump), similar to Bacon's quote on religion and the shift to mechanism (a sense of hyper masculinity and dominant control) through a seemingly weaponized sense of religion (blaming Eve for the ejection from Eden, Earth being female associated, abortions) tends to throw a wrench in to the ideals of bodily autonomy because it opens hundreds of ways for it to potentially be limited and violated like it was for Thomas(ine) Hall.
Good summary, Payton. I think that your distinction between Woman x Woman relations and Male x Male relations are important to note. In western society sexual ambiguity is more permissible between 'women' than 'men'. Interestingly we can find something like this in Iranian society, homosexuality between men is forbidden UNLESS the 'bottom' medically transitions to female (which is legally recognized). I suggest you read into that because its very fascinating, that distinction was made relatively recently (80s 90s?).
Hall makes me think of so many things especially because it was so far in the past, hall makes me think about how common it was for some native communities to have a third sex/ multi-spirited person. It also makes me think about how many other people like Hall lived and had similar things happen or even think about the people who didn’t make it as far as Hall because of who they are. How many people got away with doing what Hall did and how many of them were hurt emotionally or physically because of it? I also wonder how the mental health of Hall and others not only watching Hall being forced to be one or another but the mental health of the people deciding Hall's sex. Hall provokes questions and pride to see a person like that do so well even in that time.
The ideas of bodily autonomy in Old and New England use naturalistic elements and symbols to convey femininity. Merchant discusses the unarguable concepts of Mother Nature and her link to God (Christian/Protestant), noting that “To the peasant and farmer, her signs and activities were often enigmatic and had to be accepted as God's will rather than challenged or analyzed” (Merchant, 114). The agricultural revolution occurring in the colonies at this time used the symbolism of Mother Nature as a female figure. Does this mean that if a farm year was terrible, a woman would be blamed? Observing the recent presidential election makes me think about how many paternalistic and misogynistic individuals still believe a woman isn’t suited to be a leader. Reflecting on this article and theme makes me consider the enduring history of paternalistic culture—a culture that has persisted for over 250 years in American history.
It is shocking to me that the natural beauty of childbirth can have negative societal implications. Historically, women have been assigned strict gender roles in American society. This is evident in how women often did not receive formal education, with only elite families possessing the power to educate their daughters. Women were expected to manage the household and care for children. This history of controlled gender roles and rigid social expectations deeply concerns me, particularly in the context of presidential elections. As a male, I strongly oppose regressing to the 1950s mentality. Women should have the same rights as men and deserve autonomy, particularly concerning reproductive rights. American women should not be marginalized by patriarchal systems.
The stories of non-binary people who were sexually abused inside the criminal justice system, such as Thomas(ine) Hall, were covered in this week's session. Social norms prevent women from speaking up, and they are frequently murdered or abused because of their sexual orientation. Given that many people are hesitant to speak up, Hall's bravery in declaring his sexuality is admirable. Due to cultural norms and individual views on gender identity, the Hall case was highly skewed. Strangers still question transgender people about their physical parts, demonstrating the persistence of this curiosity.
Traditionally, husbandry meant taking care of the land, animals, and crops. It was about working closely with nature...planting seeds, caring for animals, and making sure the soil stayed healthy. But with modern machinery, like tractors and implementations of GMO's, farming has become much more about using technology to get the job done faster and more efficiently. Instead of working by hand, farmers now rely on machines to do most of the physical labor. This means farming is less about caring for the land in a personal, hands-on way and more about managing machines, running a business, and focusing on profits. So, the idea of husbandry shifts...instead of being a "husband" who nurtures and cares for the land, it can feel like the land is just a resource to be used, almost like a machine itself. This is also how men began to shift their views on women. Their wives were no longer someone they wanted to cherish, protect, and keep their hands from being calloused. They now expected dinner to be ready when they got home, the kids and house were cleaned, and when he wanted to be sexually intimate she was inclined to participate willingly. She became the machine the man worked with.
I feel like definition of manhood based on dominance in relationships creates a dependency on women’s submission, which makes masculinity feel very fragile and vulnerable. This idea basically says that masculinity requires affirmation through control or influence over others, in many cases that we have looked at over in all our sources specifically women, which honestly makes male identity reliant on maintaining hierarchical power. When this hierarchy is challenged it kinda destabilizes traditional norms of masculinity. Example: When women take on leadership roles or excel in fields traditionally dominated by men. I feel like this was shown in readings about Skywoman because she was seen as a very powerful figure.
Looking at Thomas(ine), It’s disheartening to see someone innocent unjustly pressured to fit into societal norms, especially when Thomas(ine) was causing no harm to anyone. It still relates to the world today unfortunately and I truely hope that someday this won't happen to people like them.
The case of Thomas/ine Hall is my earliest knowledge of gender and identity historically. Now that I’ve been able to examine the case on my own and in our discussions in class, I can recognize how our past shapes larger and more complex issues in society today. Also how making connections from cases like Thomas/ine Hall is so important in order to have a better understanding of gender as a whole. Hall's case represents a broader issue among individuals struggling with their identities. The close mindedness of Halls aggressors almost reminds me of a sort of hysteria similar to The Salem Witch Trials and the hysteria that followed.
I feel that masculinity is such a touchy topic for most men, and I don't really understand why. A lot of men think being masculine means being the sole provider, being big and strong, and being able to control/manipulate the women around them. Whenever I see a man that acts like that, I think they're showing the exact opposite of masculinity. Anyone can be masculine, not just men, and the fact that they think that specifically is the way to be masculine is honestly quite embarrassing.
After talking about it in class and getting a better understanding of what had happened to hall. I had found it horrid and disgussting that, that happened to them. Hall went through a lot of sexual harassment and assault. I used to identify as non- binary and it hurt when people didn't respect my pronouns and why I identified with that. So I hearing how they use He/Him for Hall made me a bit mad. What happened to hall used to be a fear of mine considering at the time ,when I did identify with non-binary, living in a town with a mix of people who are very conservative or very liberal. But there were many more conservative individuals. But the confidence Hall had to wear what ever they wanted is amazing. I personally still can't get myself to wear very feminine clothing. I do hope we can get to a point in society where everyone can live the lives they want, and not fear for their lives while living their lives the way they want to.
As a history lover, I have a passion for learning about people from the past who were influential to our history but aren’t recognized in many history books. The people who tell us most about our past are those whose voices were silenced or erased because their words or actions are usually the most real and truthful. This brings me to our readings for this week. The story of Thomas(ine) Hall fascinated me. The fact that there was history of an intersex person so far back in our past that was recorded in history amazes me. Sadly, we as a society and me as a history buff can even say that it surprises us that a person who can’t help who they are is in history rather than being erased from it. I feel like the story of Thomas(ine) Hall sheds light on the idea of masculinity and how it played such a heavy role in the society of the colonies.The idea of someone not fitting gender roles scared society. This goes back to the way that men had and kept control of the women in society and how they remained the holders of all the power in the community. They pushed gender roles that men did the labor, owned the assets, held positions of power, and that they were the decision-makers. Whereas women tended to the house, gave the men children, and had little say in society, they were merely pawns in their game. The problem with this idea being so normalized is that women started fully believing that they were less than men. To gain just a smidgen of control they took it upon themselves to preserve this idea that men were superior to women. This led to problems as we can see in the story of Thomas(ine) Hall, where women in society were sent out to “examine” Thomas(ine)’s genitalia. They used the excuse that they were protecting society when in reality they had just assaulted Thoams(ine). Thomas(ine) was a threat to their way of life and that led to many recorded assaults on Thomas(ine) and a long drawn out trial that subjected them to a series of intrusive and rude comments.